[generic] World Building: When Less is More

Neil Gow

Demi-God
Earlier this week, Simon Burley turned his Bluesky TTRPG thought of the day towards world building. He ruffled a few feathers by suggesting that minimalist world-building was better for games than immersive, encyclopaedic world-building....

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Truth.

Indeed the knack with very lore rich settings is to strip it away to "wafer thin" strips and be willing to accept that the IIIS are lazy incompetent cartographers, or Mallory was drunk and had no idea what he was writing.. who's Arthur anyway?
 
The gamer in me agrees 100%

Although, I note your Liminal Patreon appears to be codifying a lot of Liminal's lore...
 
Burned
 
The trouble with the 40 pages of immersive, encyclopaedic worldbuilding is that 90% of players won't have read it. Also, sometimes it includes ridiculously lengthy timelines of irrelevant stuff. I mean the Norman Conquest and the Wars of the Roses both had effects on the formation of modern British Society, but you don't need to know about either of them to understand the plot of Eastenders or Death in Paradise.

I want something detailed enough to inspire me, yet with enough blank spaces to fill in with ideas and plots of my own. I liked the early version of Werewolf the Apocalypse, where they said the were-cats were called the 9 Tribes, but there were only 8 actual tribes. Ooh great, I thought, so there's an extinct tribe? What extinct cats are there? Sabretooths and scimitar-tooths! So I ran a plot about the PCs coming across a reincarnated were-sabretooth, with lots of prophecies about what his appearance heralded, etc.

(Then bloody White Wolf ruined it all be having a splatbook with actual tribal details of the 9th Tribe, which was not nearly as cool as my sabretooths!)

I also don't want the world-building to be too minimalist. Unless it is specifically a sand-boxy RPG where the PCs are inventing everything as they go along.
 
The gamer in me agrees 100%

Although, I note your Liminal Patreon appears to be codifying a lot of Liminal's lore...
Aha... With the disclaimer that Cain is an unreliable narrator and nothing in my Patreon is 'canon'. Indeed, I went as far as having one of the Arthurian lectures be immediately contradicted in the other, creating space.
 
Every piece of setting information is a story you can no longer tell.
Surely it depends on the information?
King Charles killed all the zombies in Hyde Park in 2018 is a zombie-killing story you can no longer tell. But Since 2018 King Charles has repeatedly failed to kill all the zombies in Hyde Park, is a story hook.
 
I totally agree. I was one for building huge worlds and massive histories that no-one gave a damn about. I still have to fight to not do it now in things like 13th Age (so in this area is possibly the Emperor and the Crusader) - I then spend ages reading up on both and finally end up doing nothing with any of the information.
I am getting better now with Starforged, even though the Game encourages you to worldbuild your setting at the start I am just adding things as they become relevant.
 
I want to agree, and clearly the identification of collaborative space through lightly drawn settings is a real opportunity for the reasons above.

However, I first note that pretty much all of my current gaming focus is found in worlds that come in multi-book tomes: Warhammer Fantasy, Fading Suns, The One Ring, Traveller (Charted Space). Perchance, I have been seduced into the marketing and accepted norms of game line acquisition, stuffing myself with useless lore that stifles everyones' creativity and tramlines stories through heavy campaign tomes?

Nah.

There are always gaps: even with these intricately detailed settings there are endless spaces for creativity and new stories. They will just exist in a setting with a baseline of helpfully realised parameters, and areas that provide detailed exposition. (There are endless gaps even in the detailed places - particularly true). Localise, flavour and season from the setting spice rack, and add your own secret ingredients. Serve.

Liberation Detail: a created world with lore, and implicit setting details in game mechanics, provides a rich verrisimilitude from which creativity and story flourishes. If written well, and I submit that my current obsessions are, the detail provides an environment laden with conflict that translates into new stories and play experiences. Far from unwriting a story you can tell, the detail is a rich and prepared ground that harvests a burgeoning crop of consequential adventure.

Detail begets your own detail: for example, the story of a new cult (of your devising) becomes all the richer, as it emerges in the context of an existing and established religious hierarchy. Conflict and intrigue flow due to the friction, and story will emerge as to the success, failure and consequences of your newly created detail. Ripples happen in a pond, and your purchased setting provides the water to play out the disturbances that create resonances to impact the player characters.

Detail through an interpretive lense: YGMV, IMTU, WHCFO, this setting is yours now. A linked thout to reciprocating details that might wreck the world (economy). The seduction (not that I think anyone here has failed their Cool check) is to take everything provided as cast in stone. The detail provides maleable blocks to reconstruct and interpret. Perhaps the war didn't happen, or your wrath plague has broken aspects of what you have been given in print? Is the throne empty, who is vying for it now, which character is being thrust into the centre? You still have a starting richness to setting, it's just presented through your own creative layer.

Detail is fun before it gets to the table: Lore reading and play experience may well be two different things, but the enjoyment of one often leads to the other.

A wide open, bare bones setting, with a chosen game system that holds back on too many implicit assumptions, is also great fun. Reality forms collaboratively around the process of play, and introduced when a scene actually calls for it. I'd happily play in such a game, and perhaps I should try and live the gush of wise thread enthusiasm to actually run something as a thought experiment? I'm just wary of the converse notion that detailed settings hamper creativity. Perhaps instead they encourage consequential creativity from a set of conflict laden assumptions?

Note 1. I have an aversion to disagreeing with people who I admire - the folk on here - especially when I also kind of agree with the premise.
Note 2. These thoughts bubbled up and needed to be expressed.
Note 3. This is not a justification of my game shelves. No, absolutely not.
 
In my current D&D game I made the mistake giving the players too much information about the world (Mystara) when all they needed to know was that it was another kitchen sink D&D world like the forgotten realms or golarion and a few things about the country they were in.

for other games, I guess a published setting can give the players an idea of what kind of game it is. Although some of them have so much lore going back decades trying to sell it to new players is a bit like the Monty python ‘summarising Proust’ game.
 
Great response @First Age: I particularly like your suggestion that we should be free to ignore canon and pay attention to the very clear YMMV on most big settings introductions.
Ditto, I agree that lore can be fun to just read. That fits with my view that world building (like fan fic, minis, crochet Cthulhu, skirmish gaming, trade simulation and vehicle design are actually separate hobbies which have a significant overlap with roleplaying but are not roleplaying. Also a lot of lore is overwritten as @steveh has pointed out, and a lot is just unoriginal repurposed crap.
It can be difficult to parse the actual useable, novel and fun bits from the drek sometimes.
On the other hand.. completely blank slate or very focused simple games and settings can be very difficult for people to grasp originality or fantasy/science out of fresh air.
I also am just tired of reading words.
So, like others I do think endless splat books of badly overwritten clichés are bad, I also think a well written focused setting of a playable area, that has been edited well, delivers the "kernel" of the setting and leaves gaps and uncertainty is best for me.
However I also swing between picking out bits from big settings to co-creating others -- so I guess I like to ring the changes.
 
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In my current D&D game I made the mistake giving the players too much information about the world (Mystara) when all they needed to know was that it was another kitchen sink D&D world like the forgotten realms or golarion and a few things about the country they were in.

for other games, I guess a published setting can give the players an idea of what kind of game it is. Although some of them have so much lore going back decades trying to sell it to new players is a bit like the Monty python ‘summarising Proust’ game.
Or what Neil said.
Anyway I think I’ve convinced myself to sell most of my D&D gazetteers
 
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I like my setting material contained in stories - whether novels or movies or TV series. I hate reading background material for its own sake.

(Mrs H once gave me Fire & Blood, the history of Westeros. Dear god, I lasted about twenty pages. I found it just so dull.)
 
Oh, and similarly, I like my RPG setting material contained in adventures. (At least when its done well.) I'm unlikely ever to produce additional setting books for Other London, because if I want to explore the setting, I'll do that through investigations.
 
Anyway I think I’ve convinced myself to sell most of my D&D gazetteers
Nah, keep em and just leave them around for players to idly look through.

Question: does Mystara have portals of some kind so you can zip between regions?
 
Nah, keep em and just leave them around for players to idly look through.

Question: does Mystara have portals of some kind so you can zip between regions?
The core Known World region is quite small really so there’s the Viking place sort of wedged between the Mongol place and the Arab/Persian place. There aren’t any portals as written but there could be.
 
I have a sort of love/hate relationship with Charted Space, but default to it because it's easy. I wonder if that is because I was able to absorb it a little bit at a time as it came out, rather than drinking from a fire hose?

IIRC part of GDW's rationale for Traveller: The New Era was deliberately invalidating the old canon so new players didn't have to learn it.
 
Drinking from the fire hose is the problem for gaming.
Not a problem if you just enjoy reading lore.
It's a contradiction.
 
Drinking from the fire hose is the problem for gaming.
Not a problem if you just enjoy reading lore.
It's a contradiction.
Oooh, that's almost a haiku! :cool:
 
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